Hook's next cloud experiment-- Google redux. Questions.

[JRakes]

First and foremost: Apologies if I had a tone of being "offended." I'm definitely NOT offended, so I regret if I gave that impression. I'm obviously still learning something, or I wouldn't continue watching.

It probably is simply disappointment peeking through, since what I see is not something I perceive as useful. Frankly, I see no advantage to the "search based" approach. I'm not saying it doesn't work, just that I see no advantage. I took a quick look in a data folder on Lappie. ~10k files. These are arranged hierarchically in sub-folders, in a well organized manner - Approx 10 years worth of data files, and I can put my finger on any one of them in a couple of seconds from within an Explorer window. I see no advantage to dumping them all into that ridiculous \My Documents\ catch-all bucket, then relying on some sort of digging mechanism to find something in 3 years. Even IF that process was balanced from a functional (time) standpoint, why would I? What wold be the purpose?

I'm definitely a "place for everything and everything in its place" guy. I have some "misc piles" here and there - That's simply a requirement for normal, human, day-to-day functioning. But those don't last long - They're really more like "buffers." But as for the organizational aspects: I suppose what I'm driving at is the consistency. For data, if a "lump it all together then search" approach is used, the presentation of that data becomes all-critical, for me. EVERY piece of data, EVERY time, must ALWAYS be presented in a perfectly usable and consistent manner. Not a further set of choices. Not choosing from a collection of possibilities. If I'm going to rely on a search to find something, it has to provide exactly what I want, every time, without fail, and present it to me exactly as I will use it. I've yet to see that happen, which is why I rarely search for anything - I simply put it where it belongs to start with, then I can instantly go back to it at a later time.

[ASIDE]
I've never lost my keys. Ever. And I do NOT keep them all on a single, giant, pocket-splitting ring. There is an individual set for each car, a set for home / office doors only, a set for "utility" type keys, etc. I never have more than two of any type with me at any given time - Perhaps the set of keys for the car I'm driving and the home / office keys. And even at that, once at work, the car keys are put in their designated space in my desk, leaving only the few door keys on my person. I've never, ever mixed various keys on a ring. And I've never lost a key. Well, except that time someone broke into a car and stole some...

All that as a glimpse into how I operate. And intend to continue operating...
[/ASIDE]

Of note here is also the fact that I'm not just talking about mobile. My perception of mobile is essentially an extension of my PC. Again, it's a tool, a mobile extension of my "base," which is my laptop. I look at my mobile, therefore, as performing similarly, being used similarly. And if there's ever to be any possibility of a mobile device taking on more and more of a fully-functional PC role for me, much less replacing it, that is a go/no-go absolute. Further, I manage my PC / data just as I do the rest of my life, in many ways. Hence my comparisons to how other things are stored / retained for usage.

So, I suppose there continues to be some disappointment on my part. Disappointment in the fact that I still see the development of technology not as a tool coming to me, something which I can allow to work for me, but as a tool to which I must go, something I must pursue, which I must make work for me by changing how I do things. I admit I'm not typically an "easy changer," but I have no problem with change when it brings benefits greater than that change. I just don't see that here... At best, it's a wash, from my perspective. And if it's a wash, in the end, it's not worth any time or effort.

Hence, experiments like Hook's catch my eye, but leave me frustrated when they demonstrate, once again, that we can change the way we do this or that, but we always end up sacrificing something else, only to realize we didn't get what we sought initially. Change for a benefit or improvement is good! Change for the sake of change (or because "that's how they do it") is, IMHO, stupid. And on that last point, I am unanimous.

Oh, and apologies to Hook if his thread has again flown off its tracks and onto some cliff-bound tangent. I see this type of discussion as being a factor in what he's been trying, and it seems this type of thing is a part of the roadblock he's found. But it IS his thread, after all...

<Joe-Boy, who is rather adventurous at times, isn't in a plank-walking mood this particular morning... >

[questionfear]

JRakes-

Keep in mind you can have both kinds of systems. My files at work on my pc are very hierarchical, with lots of sub-folders. Mostly because when I need one of them, it's either immediate, I don't remember quite what I called it, or I'm emailing it and therefore can't/don't want to search for it first.

But for my home life, where I have more control and less need for immediacy on the docs side, and more need for immediacy on the email/contact/calendar/tasks side, the search system is far better for me....here's an example.

Let's say I'm working on a review for Gear Diary. I have a to-do with the review product name, tagged Gear Diary. I have emails between myself and the vendor. I have a contact card for the vendor, also tagged Gear Diary (and the vendor's company). Typing in Gear Diary gets me all that information, as does using the product/vendor's name. And I can do it all from my phone's homescreen. And because my phone remembers what I've been searching for, if I am jumping around all it takes is hitting the search key again and my last search shows up as an option...so I can check the email communication, hit search, boom, back in to-dos to update something...see how that works better for my purposes, especially on a mobile device?

Different, not better or worse.

[JRakes]

No, definitely not better or worse. But I don't bounce around with such things. Any of my e-activities are task focused and specific. (I get quite enough bouncing around in other work activities, so I refuse to live like that in any other aspect of my life. )

It sounds as though, even for my home / personal stuff, my needs and functions are more like what you describe for your work - If I want or need something, it's now, not something I want to search for and sort out. And that's exactly the system I have. Folks are amazed at how quickly I can access anything, anytime, while they're fumbling around with searching and finding and figuring out which is what. Granted, a lot of that is their own lack of organization when it comes to file names, structured data, etc. Anything I frequently use has a dedicated shortcut for instant-access. I honestly can't remember the last time I opened, say, Word, then clicked File>Open> then set about finding something. I immediately go to the file itself, via an organized storage method, then simply hit Enter.

I don't track emails or documents by contact. I don't need to and have no use for that. When I do need to email a document, I just find said document immediately (as mentioned above,) then right-click>Send, type in the rest of the email (if needed,) then hit Send. Done. The nature of my documentation is that, usually, there's no need to yammer back and forth about it, so I don't really care who sends what.

Again, though, I do NOTHING like that on a mobile device. The hardware is simply too limiting for any "real work" for me - Display size, fully functional keyboard / pointing device, etc. My PDA is an extension of my PC, but 90% of that is as a point of reference - Immediate access to key data. No searching or sorting, just tap tap boom. There it is. I make occasional minor mods / edits, but that's the extent of it. Any "real work" I do is done on a "real computer," then appropriate data is synced for portability to my single device. I don't need to keep multiple points in sync beyond those two. Juggling more than I currently use would be an exercise in frustration for me.

So, in the end, any system of data management, storage, syncing, whatever, that is not as simple as my current approach is just more effort for no benefit. I've got better things to do than set up, much less manage, a collection of pipelines.

Of course, I'll happily re-evaluate if there's a perceived advantage for myself. That's why I follow these types of threads / discussions. So far, however, the mish-mash of pipelines, as well as the search-n-sort approach, seem inifinitely more cumbersome for my use, and there's certainly no added functionality for me.

All that said, I'm quite sure my "system" wouldn't work for lots of folks. And I know from experience (and trying to help other folks) that if you've worked in a disorganized manner for long, getting to an organized point is nearly impossible. Better for some I've helped to ditch it all and start over.

I'm starting to think this stuff is really just the rest of the world catching up to me, since most other folks seem to be far more disorganized and scattered... (That's a joke, KidZ! )

[brickman65]

People!! C'mon!! Have you not figured out the problem yet?! I mean it is plain as day!

Joe-Boy is an Engineer!

Engineers are not normal. They don't think like the rest of Humanity. In fact, I am convinced that they are a different species. They process info differently. Look at it differently and certainly organize it differently from the rest of us. I mean look at how he does his Car Keys!! Can you say Anal!!

Sorry but I had to have add a little levity to the conversation at Joe's expense. Love ya Man!! Mean It!!. I live right in the middle of about 100,000 Joes here at Redstone Arsenal and Marshall Space Flight, so I have learned how to work with them. I even help coach my sons Baseball team with one. You should see how he analyses the game, the stats,... everything! I make fun of him all the time but, he is a great coach and his method is very effective!

I half-way kid about how Engineers think. They really do process information differently from the rest of us. But that is a good thing! They can do things that the rest of us, especially me, can not. We may not want to admit it but we NEED the Joes of the world!

[JRakes]

BWAHAHAHA!!!

Virtual Reppies to ya for that one, Brick! Ya old FlatLander...

Thing is, you're right. Different people DO process, interpret, and USE data differently. And I'll be the first to admit that we gearheads are somewhat of a breed apart. As much as other people struggle with us, we struggle with figuring out how anybody else on the planet manages to survive.

But that was just TOO funny - Thanks!

Now, please excuse me... I need to go straighten up and organize the ice cubes in the freezer bin.

[Hook]

Holy cow, this thread got busy while I went to bed early.

Whether you move from the discussion here to another or not, don't stop paying attention. Both types of organization-search-intelligence rely on lessons from the other to be more useful. Man is trying to duplicate what our brains do by design, we've got a long, long way to go.

I'm actually fairly convinced the brain takes in data and then tells stories about it. That is, making sense of the world is the same brain activity whether we are reading a book, watching a movie, trouble-shooting a computer or staring out the window.

That's what I want. A platform that tells me stories about my data.

Funny, my mom said the same thing throughout my youth; and then wondered how I never lost things that were always buried under something else. She, on the other hand, kept everything logged and in files/folders, etc., and always seemed to lose her keys. I used to ask why she didn't just file those, since it seems she tracks things better that way...

For the record, I don't sort, I give items a space, and let the context play the role of a tag. For my keys, they sit on a table I walk past when I get hungry - because I'm usually eating when I come in or right before I leave. So the plate goes down, and up goes my keys. If the keys aren't there, its because they are on my "man chair" because I didn't eat when I came in but sat beside my mobile and work laptop. Its not a "place for everything and everything in its place" but they also don't get lost either

Heeheehee, in the real world, in most cases I use geological strata filing system. Most things I'm actively working with are near the top. Other things I can find pretty fast either because the piles have context or I know how long ago I last worked with it and thus where it should be in the strata.

The exception is what I need at both work and home: Papers, books, keys, train tickets, BlackBerry, etc. These have very specific locations in my backpack and they live there and are returned there immediately after use as they are things I can't afford to "have left a home/work when I am at work/home."

Should be... but remember, Hook's method is also trying to do this on systems that were designed to categorize differently. And so, First|Last Name doesn't equal First Name | Last Name. Looking for logic/services that reconcile that is a holy grail of search, sync, and database management. And usually, it falls to be a personal or organizational solution, rather than a general one that works for everyone. Hence GooSync, Exchange, etc.

Yes. Plus the incompatibly of the pipes in general (the flag setting problems I've mentioned before).

So Hook;
Disregarding the financial costs, does Exchange work since it hits all of your devices equally and with the least amount of additional setup other than an attending app and granular settings for not doing email?

Probably, but it feels a bit like buying a hummer when the only place I ever go is the corner store. For now, I'm probably not going to go down this road.

Is Google a better match because of its ability to not just be central, but search is big part of what they do? You'd have a financial hit here from the side of your desktop, or is it worth doing the research towards a desktop PIM that does Google syncing more freely (Mozilla Sunbird perhaps)?

The problem here is that the mozilla stuff doesn't offer a good non-WinMo contacts syncing solution as far as I can tell. Calendar syncing is easy.

Or is Ovi a better option (once some issues are addressed with the desktop client)?

This would be the best solution. Either use Ovi Desktop to sync Outlook with both Ovi Web and my 5800 or produce a desktop that holds the records that are both on the phone and on the web. The desktop could just be a mirror with the phone doing the actual syncing, I'm not picky about that. I just want the same stuff in all three places.

On what device or service are you placing as the non-negotiable? Meaning, which device has to be accurate no matter what? I believe you talked of the work PC, home PC, and mobile.

Can you deal with any compromises with any of these? And if so, what are these and can you see yourself regretting that later after moving to a new device, platform, etc.?

Work is work. My work syncs with my BlackBerry and I have tunneling software that allows me to work securely on my work servers from home, but no work is allowed on my personal computers and smartphone, so work isn't even in this picture. That's probably why my needs are so modest, if specific, that going to a big guns solution doesn't make sense.

I don't have a specific demand on how my data is stored or how I retrieve it. I am not a Datebk6 user and I am not as organized as Joe (I have often wished I were, but I'm not). My real road block has been the consistency of data over the various pipes and the reliability of being able to pull back the data without a lot of extra work. So I get annoyed when I sync my phone to Ovi for the first time and it throws out all phone numbers except those explicitly labeled as mobile numbers. Ovi will keep those other numbers once I handjam them into Ovi, but if I forget and put a new contact in the phone first, I have to remember to go handjam some of the information later.

I get annoyed when one or the other pipe decides I didn't really want Lastname, Firstname and reverses the order. Then when I change them back, it decides I have a new set of contacts and duplicates everything in both places. And then when I use Gmail's "merge duplicates" function, the pipes decide that I just deleted a whole set of contacts and feels obligated to delete them all in the other location where they weren't duplicated.

I just want reliability. I get that with a USB cable. For now, my needs are not great enough for me to have the patience to work through this other stuff. I am hoping as things go along, these options will get better. I will keep trying from time to time, despite what I said earlier about the definition of insanity.

Just some questions I had after typing that long stuff above. Sorry folks for the extra long post/thread.

Good questions. I'm enjoying where this thread has gone of late.

[Hook]

People!! C'mon!! Have you not figured out the problem yet?! I mean it is plain as day!

Joe-Boy is an Engineer!

Engineers are not normal. They don't think like the rest of Humanity. In fact, I am convinced that they are a different species. They process info differently. Look at it differently and certainly organize it differently from the rest of us. I mean look at how he does his Car Keys!! Can you say Anal!!

Sorry but I had to have add a little levity to the conversation at Joe's expense. Love ya Man!! Mean It!!. I live right in the middle of about 100,000 Joes here at Redstone Arsenal and Marshall Space Flight, so I have learned how to work with them. I even help coach my sons Baseball team with one. You should see how he analyses the game, the stats,... everything! I make fun of him all the time but, he is a great coach and his method is very effective!

I half-way kid about how Engineers think. They really do process information differently from the rest of us. But that is a good thing! They can do things that the rest of us, especially me, can not. We may not want to admit it but we NEED the Joes of the world!

Thanks, Brick, now I don't need to bother replying to Joe's posts.

[JRakes]

I just want reliability. I get that with a USB cable. For now, my needs are not great enough for me to have the patience to work through this other stuff. I am hoping as things go along, these options will get better. I will keep trying from time to time, despite what I said earlier about the definition of insanity.

That pretty much sums up my needs, as well - Reliable functionality. Until I see demonstrated reliability, with the necessary flexibility, I don't care what other half-baked capabilities or "progress" might be included. It just has to work, seamlessly and painlessly, with no glitches, at all times. Reliable functionality trumps added capabilities with issues any day, for me.

Also, I do NOT make a good guinea pig - I'd be more like a rabid rat if things went wrong. And I do NOT react well to fixing other people's screw-ups. I keep my stuff in order, and I expect the same from those who might impact me. I'm not such a stickler that I overlook the human aspect - Quite the opposite, actually. But I place VERY high demands on myself and, by extension, have very high demands externally.

That limits what will meet my needs and wants, certainly. But it doesn't mean I don't continue to watch, albeit with a critical eye, for something of use! So far, that something has been a USB cable and local-only data. That reliability / functionality has been 100%.

[Mi An]

We may not want to admit it but we NEED the Joes of the world!

Is brickman a horror novelist by chance?

*Mi An goes to the corner to rock back and forth quietly. Takes eye drops with him*

[Antoine Wright]

In the end business users, artists, and engineers all want the same thing. How they get there makes them who they are.

My client gets that sentence from me 1-5 times a week. There's no room in my sig for it here

Of note here is also the fact that I'm not just talking about mobile. My perception of mobile is essentially an extension of my PC. Again, it's a tool, a mobile extension of my "base," which is my laptop. I look at my mobile, therefore, as performing similarly, being used similarly. And if there's ever to be any possibility of a mobile device taking on more and more of a fully-functional PC role for me, much less replacing it, that is a go/no-go absolute. Further, I manage my PC / data just as I do the rest of my life, in many ways. Hence my comparisons to how other things are stored / retained for usage.

And this is where organization with mobile, web, desktop, services, books, etc. begins, what is the main unit, the non-negociable unit. For JRakes, that seems to be the desktop-paradigm (PC is just about everything from calcs to mobiles to servers, context is everything ain't it), for Hood that is the data (wink, this one makes things hard).

That's what I want. A platform that tells me stories about my data.

Its getting there, see here...

Both of the methods talked about in this thread will merge in time. The next major UI change for mobile will be in the guise of time-stream-based user interfaces. Here, you need to have linear and spatial recognition of everything and everyone as an event in time, and from that point in time, you and your mobile are searching for those content types (content containers). Such a system though requires that you know the basics of organization (Dewey decimal) while also how to leverage keywords, times, tags, etc. for dynamic (right-now) queries (search). It will be the kind of UI and attachment to other people and systems that looks like its almost predicting what we want before we get it - and its not, but it uses where we've organized data before, to present to us data in a way that best speaks to the moment we are in.

The logic needing to go into these systems - even the stuff that seems simple like a Outlook database, is immense. Adding the human condition (senses, emotions, context, etc.) to that is just... eh, fun.

We are in some good times, and a lot of mistakes will come, and things will seem and be irrelevant. But, we have a choice. Tech is only relevant when its personal, or when we are being taxed for not using it