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  1. #31
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    Default Re: HandBrake and Palm thread

    Raspy, of course I'm listening!

    I don't know what you mean by using MP4 and H.264 or XviD. On my HB screen, the output video encoder is EITHER: MPEG-4, XviD, OR H.264. I've never gotten H.264 to work and I don't think it's purely processor speed, although that's part of it. I use MPEG-4 and output it to an MP4 format file. These work very well.

    Watch the presets though. If you use the iPhone preset (which seems logical as it's optimized for the same screen size, etc.); HB adds some code I don't understand. Look at the 'Advanced' tab on the HB main screen. It adds a string (one thing is B-frames); but there are others. I start from scratch and just do the stuff I want to use.

    You DO want to use anapomorphic. The explanation is too elaborate here, but you can read about it on HB. Basically this is a shortcut that takes some load off the device. It records the original format and then uses the anamorphic flag to scale it appropriately. I use LOOSE ANAMORPHIC and force the width to be 480. HB does the rest, choosing the best height (divisible by 16 for easy computing) that matches the aspect ratio of the original film (usually 1.85, 2.35, or 1.78 for widescreen TV). It works fantastically.

    I"m glad I'm not the only person who's had problems with HB's board. I innocently said something about the typical aspect ratio of movies and practically had people with pitchforks and torches after me.

  2. #32
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    Default Re: HandBrake and Palm thread

    Hey Razz, not Varjak but he'll be coming along soon.

    Excellent post Razz. Very much enjoyed the detailed specs and comparisons.
    Didn't know you could set the file size absolutely.
    "...handbrake to create a 140MB file,..."
    My experience in setting a video to mp4 was that it would view great but be at a much greater size than the .avi version so I only used it for European videos that I couldn't convert to .avi.
    I think your anamorphic is just regarding what it means to handbrake and settings. But in case anyone else is finding this in new DVD releases (older movies redone in anamorphic to keep market value longer), here's what I found when purchasing new season releases on DVD. Bottom line: if there is a choice between regular widescreen/letterbox and anamorphic, go for the anamorphic in purchases for longevity as TV tech updates and your budget/gear updates. For a 480 screen, it may not make much sense but if it means you can capture the whole screen instead of the boxed section from letterbox, then its better especially for rendering to a mobil device.
    [URL="http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/anamorphic/"]http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/anamorphic/[/
    URL]
    When I get my first anamorphic DVD set, I'll see if I can render any clips (no restrictions) with the ana settings on HB.
    I think HB's responses are written by techs rather than the interface people who have more people skills and patience to put things into friendlier terms.
    BH is a super friendly and patient community in contrast. By interface, I mean the go betweens who handle communication between programmers and clients (users). in contrast, BH's posters are noticeably written from the user perspective rather than a tech/programmer. Many of the tech/programmers who post are noticeably techy, short with patience and grumpy but efficient and brusque. And of course there are the few who are downright intimidating but hey, then it cuts down the questioning so that's one reason for being mean to the quester.

    Clock speeds: nice to know that's the key. So how does one overclock a TX?
    ah - Warpspeed from Dimitri. that's advanced TX for me.

    (detelecine, decomb, deinterlace, denoise, deblock): Interesting since these would all relate to broadcasting and it since HB is making something to play on a standalone, wonder why these features are avail. Maybe it's if the minaturized vid is streamed or otherwise distributed after its rendered instead of just going to a standalone player.

    REally really good post.
    Last edited by FireNWater; 07-29-2009 at 06:15 PM. Reason: to avoid generalities (the all word)
    LTS: life's too short.
    Palms: very old freebie, V, E2, T/X

  3. #33
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    Default Re: HandBrake and Palm thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Varjak View Post
    I don't know what you mean by using MP4 and H.264 or XviD. On my HB screen, the output video encoder is EITHER: MPEG-4, XviD, OR H.264.
    I'm not following you. What I mean is that I used either the MPEG-4 (XviD) and the H.264 codecs when encoding with an MP4 container. When encoding AVIs I only used the MPEG-4 (XviD) codec. So I can have an MP4 file with XviD inside, or an MP4 file with H.264 inside, or an AVI with XviD inside. Is this what you mean?
    Quote Originally Posted by Varjak View Post
    I've never gotten H.264 to work and I don't think it's purely processor speed, although that's part of it.
    I definitely got excellent playback with MP4 and H.264 at 520MHz. I can confirm that the encoding was done in H.264 because Nero Vision reports that, and also TCPMP and CorePlayer (both report that the CoreAVC codec is being used).

    I still think you're using too high video bitrates. I saw that some Ipod presets go above the 1000 kbps mark, and this is definitely too much for a TX or LD, even at 520MHz. But at the quality I'm using (about 600kbps, I think) video quality is excellent on both my computer and TX. You could try encoding with H.264 and the parameters I used, see how well your LD fares.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varjak View Post
    I use MPEG-4 and output it to an MP4 format file. These work very well.
    Varjak, when you say you use MPEG-4, what "flavor" are you using? XviD is MPEG-4, and so is FFMpeg. Heck, even H.264 is MPEG-4. All these options appear on the version of Handbrake I'm using (0.9.3 build 2008112300).
    Quote Originally Posted by Varjak View Post
    Watch the presets though. If you use the iPhone preset (which seems logical as it's optimized for the same screen size, etc.); HB adds some code I don't understand. Look at the 'Advanced' tab on the HB main screen. It adds a string (one thing is B-frames); but there are others. I start from scratch and just do the stuff I want to use.
    Yes, I noticed the string in the Advanced tab. I chose not to modify any of these since I don't understand either how this works. But since I got good playback with them I think I'll leave things untouched until I learn more.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varjak View Post
    You DO want to use anapomorphic. The explanation is too elaborate here, but you can read about it on HB. Basically this is a shortcut that takes some load off the device. It records the original format and then uses the anamorphic flag to scale it appropriately. I use LOOSE ANAMORPHIC and force the width to be 480. HB does the rest, choosing the best height (divisible by 16 for easy computing) that matches the aspect ratio of the original film (usually 1.85, 2.35, or 1.78 for widescreen TV). It works fantastically.
    Yes, I followed some of the discussions at HB about anamorphic. However, I don't get some things. I'm not changing the aspect ratio, I'm using the same aspect ratio of the source. I'm applying the same scale ratio to width and height, and with the "none" setting I get a good image, with no apparent aspect distortion. Also, the dimensions I used (480x208) are both divisible by 16. I'd like to discuss more about this "anamorphic" option. I'll read some more to see if I understand what it's all about.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varjak View Post
    I"m glad I'm not the only person who's had problems with HB's board. I innocently said something about the typical aspect ratio of movies and practically had people with pitchforks and torches after me.
    Well, I've had no problems because I chose not to post, even though I wanted to ask so many questions. Just reading the replies to your posts about aspect ratios scared the hell out of me! What's the point of having a board if all you're going to do is run searches of older threads, when is a new discussion going to start and what is deemed as an appropiate topic for one?
    Quote Originally Posted by FireNWater View Post
    Excellent post Razz. Very much enjoyed the detailed specs and comparisons.
    Didn't know you could set the file size absolutely.
    "...handbrake to create a 140MB file,..."
    Thanks, FNW. I'm new to HB, but this option to set an absolute file size is very handy to run tests and comparisons. It's right on the money too. All of the 4 clips I encoded are no more than 1MB away from the intended mark.
    Quote Originally Posted by FireNWater View Post
    My experience in setting a video to mp4 was that it would view great but be at a much greater size than the .avi version so I only used it for European videos that I couldn't convert to .avi.
    Actually, an MP4 with H.264 is smaller for the same quality.
    Quote Originally Posted by FireNWater View Post
    I think your anamorphic is just regarding what it means to handbrake and settings. But in case anyone else is finding this in new DVD releases (older movies redone in anamorphic to keep market value longer), here's what I found when purchasing new season releases on DVD. Bottom line: if there is a choice between regular widescreen/letterbox and anamorphic, go for the anamorphic in purchases for longevity as TV tech updates and your budget/gear updates. For a 480 screen, it may not make much sense but if it means you can capture the whole screen instead of the boxed section from letterbox, then its better especially for rendering to a mobil device.
    [URL="http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/anamorphic/"]http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/anamorphic/[/
    URL]
    Ah, that's interesting. More food for thought.... I'll have to run some more tests enabling loose anamorphic as Varjak suggested, see if that has some impact on performance. Thanks for the link, I'll check it out.
    Quote Originally Posted by FireNWater View Post
    I think HB's responses are written by techs rather than the interface people who have more people skills and patience to put things into friendlier terms.
    That's no excuse IMO. I've been a tech all my life, and I don't respond like that. Well, sometimes when one of my co-workers is especially dense I may burn my fuses, but I won't go beyond a yell or two Seriously, if you don't have patience you have no business attending an online forum, much less moderating one. But that's just my two cents.
    Quote Originally Posted by FireNWater View Post
    Clock speeds: nice to know that's the key. So how does one overclock a TX?
    ah - Warpspeed from Dimitri. that's advanced TX for me.
    Not too advanced, really. I've been overclocking my Palm devices for years, ever since I purchased my first device (a Vx) nine years ago. I've been running my TX at 416 MHz and 520 MHz for two years and never had a single crash, reset, or other malfunction. But then I overclock conservatively, changing only the CPU speed, not the BUS speed. You may want to search here and at 1src to see what people have to say about overclocking.
    Quote Originally Posted by FireNWater View Post
    (detelecine, decomb, deinterlace, denoise, deblock): Interesting since these would all relate to broadcasting and it since HB is making something to play on a standalone, wonder why these features are avail. Maybe it's if the minaturized vid is streamed or otherwise distributed after its rendered instead of just going to a standalone player
    That I don't know. Probably you're right, and that would mean we don't need to use those options if encoding movies form DVD, right?

    I see that Handbrake has little in the way of enhancing video / audio. Pocket DivX Encoder allows you to increase brighthness, saturation, audio volume, contrast, audio normalization, and increasing stereo. I liked these options, because the TX's screen is so dim and the speaker so weak that boosting these parameters made for a better quality. However, the output of Handbrake looks very good on my TX (in terms of brighthness, saturation, etc) better than an equivalent file encoded with PE. Still, would be nice to be able to modify these parameters.
    raspabalsa
    Palm Vx -> Palm m515 -> Palm Tungsten T1 -> Palm Tungsten T2 -> Palm Tungsten T3 -> Palm TX -> Samsung Galaxy Player 5.0 + Apple BT Keyboard -> Sony Xperia Z1 phone + Logitech BT Keyboard

    There are just four simple machines to alter force: the lever, the pulley, the inclined plane and, um, the internal combustion engine - Calvin
    Anything with a large enough engine will fly

  4. #34
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    Default Re: HandBrake and Palm thread

    Look at the HB screen. On 0.9.2 for Windows (what I'm using, I don't know what you used, but I doubt the panel changed much). Right in the middle of the control panel, to the left is a drop down box for "OUTPUT SETTINGS." When I click on that arrow, I get: MPEG-4, XviD, and H.264. You can't use ALL of them, you need to pick one. I pick MPEG-4. That's what I mean.

    I did NOT use a high bitrate for H.264. I tried a bunch, all the way down to 180 or something and nothing played. Everyone else said the same. From what I read in your post, it sounded like you only tried that on your computer and the permutations you did try on your TX didn't make sense to me (i.e. MPEG4 with H.264). I use the higher bitrates for MPEG4, because that's what's recommended and it works excellently. The only problem is that it results in a larger file. I plan on reducing the bitrate gradually, to see what size benefits I gain, without losing quality. But that's just fine-tuning.

    Also, remember, by setting a max-size, you are generating a lower-quality file, so it's more likely to play, overclocked or not.

  5. #35
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    Default Re: HandBrake and Palm thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Varjak View Post
    Look at the HB screen. On 0.9.2 for Windows (what I'm using, I don't know what you used, but I doubt the panel changed much).
    Well, we're using different versions. I downloaded 0.9.3 a few days ago, right from the website, so I think it's the most recent.

    I haven't seen 0.9.2, so can't say how much different the new version looks and acts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varjak View Post
    Right in the middle of the control panel, to the left is a drop down box for "OUTPUT SETTINGS." When I click on that arrow, I get: MPEG-4, XviD, and H.264.
    In output settings, I get options for the container, not the codec. The containers listed are: MP4, M4V, MKV, AVI, and OGM.

    Below this I have a series of tabs to select settings. The Video tab lets me select the codec to use for the selected container. If I choose the MP4 container, I have the options "MPEG-4 (FFMpeg)", "MPEG-4 (Xvid)", and "H.264 (x.264)". These same options appear if I choose the AVI container.

    Below is a screenshot of the version I use so you can compare with yours.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varjak View Post
    You can't use ALL of them, you need to pick one. I pick MPEG-4. That's what I mean.
    Yeah, I agree on that. I said I created four clips. One is an MP4 containing H.264 video, another is an MP4 containing XviD video, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varjak View Post
    I did NOT use a high bitrate for H.264. I tried a bunch, all the way down to 180 or something and nothing played. Everyone else said the same. From what I read in your post, it sounded like you only tried that on your computer and the permutations you did try on your TX didn't make sense to me (i.e. MPEG4 with H.264).
    I'm not saying I used MPEG with H.264. I'm saying I used the MP4 container with the H.264 codec. Also, I used the MP4 container with the XviD codec, and so on. Looks like things are handled differently between versions 0.9.2 and 0.9.3. Could you take a look at 0.9.3, see if what I say makes sense after you check it out?

    I tried all the videos both on my computer and on my TX. The AVI container with XviD codec played ok at any CPU clock, the MP4 container with XviD codec played ok at any CPU speed, but the MP4 container with H.264 codec played marginally well at 416MHz and ok at 520 MHz if using 24 fps. At 29 fps it played marginally well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varjak View Post
    I use the higher bitrates for MPEG4, because that's what's recommended and it works excellently. The only problem is that it results in a larger file. I plan on reducing the bitrate gradually, to see what size benefits I gain, without losing quality. But that's just fine-tuning.
    I think we should agree on names and conventions. MPEG-4 is a set of standards, of which H.264 is only one specification (MPEG-4 part 10). XviD, FFMpeg, and DivX are another (MPEG-4 part 2). MP4 is yet another part (MPEG-4 part 14), which specifies a container. So by saying you used MPEG-4 you don't say which part of it you're using for your encodings. Again, I think part of tyhis confusion stems from differences in the versions of Handbrake we're using.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varjak View Post
    Also, remember, by setting a max-size, you are generating a lower-quality file, so it's more likely to play, overclocked or not.
    Yes, but I calculated the file size based on how much an AVI of acceptable quality would weigh, in order to compare video qualities. I'd like to compare actual bitrates between your videos and mine. I don't know how to calculate this info from an MP4 file, whereas I have a calculator to do just that for an AVI file. However, CorePlayer's benchmark tool yields a "data rate" value. For one of the H.264 videos I encoded this data rate is 24.40 Mbit/s. Sounds awfully high, but I don't know how to extract the common audio and video bitrates from it.

    Varjak, can you run some numbers for the videos you encoded? How many MB per minute, and at what audio bitrates? This way I can compare them to mine and try to see if yours are higher bitrate than mine, and try to predict if yours will run on my overclocked TX.

    Hope we clear the name issues, I'm enjoying this discussion but would like to be sure we're talking about the same things
    Attached Images Attached Images
    raspabalsa
    Palm Vx -> Palm m515 -> Palm Tungsten T1 -> Palm Tungsten T2 -> Palm Tungsten T3 -> Palm TX -> Samsung Galaxy Player 5.0 + Apple BT Keyboard -> Sony Xperia Z1 phone + Logitech BT Keyboard

    There are just four simple machines to alter force: the lever, the pulley, the inclined plane and, um, the internal combustion engine - Calvin
    Anything with a large enough engine will fly

  6. #36
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    Default Re: HandBrake and Palm thread

    Thanks for all of this detail, Raspy. I think I'm going to have to give the new version of HB a try. Looks like it has some nice controls.
    Hook's Palm TX Help Page

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  7. #37
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    Default Re: HandBrake and Palm thread

    You're welcome, Hook!

    I ran a few more tests last night, and found some interesting things.

    On Handbrake, my previous test encodings where made by setting a fixed file size (140 MB), equivalent of an AVI of 600 kbps video and 128 kbps audio, as I explained earlier. Well, now I didn't set the file size. Instead, I set Handbrake to use an average video bitrate of 600 kbps (see the controls to do this in the screenshot above), and an audio bitrate of 128 kbps. Surprisingly, the file produced by Handbrake this time weighs 138MB, almost the same size as the ones in the earlier encodings. So it seems the calculations for file size based on bitrates that I've been using for my AVIs are also valid for these MP4s with H.264 codec.

    I then prepared another encoding, this time setting HB to use an average bitrate of 900 kbps (with the H.264 codec), just below the value used by Varjak earlier (960 kbps). Again, audio was encoded at 128 MB. The file produced by HB this time weighs 194 MB. Again, this is almost the same file size predicted by the video calculator I've been using for years.

    I then played the 900 kbps video on my TX overclocked at 520 MHz. The benchmark yielded 101.74% and a framerate of 24.394 (the original video is at 23.976 fps). A playback test yielded about 1.5% dropped frames. These results are similar to my earlier tests at 600 kbps and 416 MHz: the overclocked TX is barely capable of playing them, and will drop start dropping frames.

    So it seems that the upper limit for H.264 videos for my TX running at 520 MHz is more or less 600 kbps @ 29 fps, or 900 kbps @24 fps. Anything above this and the TX won't be able to keep up.
    raspabalsa
    Palm Vx -> Palm m515 -> Palm Tungsten T1 -> Palm Tungsten T2 -> Palm Tungsten T3 -> Palm TX -> Samsung Galaxy Player 5.0 + Apple BT Keyboard -> Sony Xperia Z1 phone + Logitech BT Keyboard

    There are just four simple machines to alter force: the lever, the pulley, the inclined plane and, um, the internal combustion engine - Calvin
    Anything with a large enough engine will fly

  8. #38
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    Default Re: HandBrake and Palm thread

    You are right about mixing up the terms (I do that more than you did it).

    I choose the output file/container format elsewhere. The new version seems more flexible. If I remember correctly, in my version I have to save to M4V and then rename it MP4 to play on TCPMP. I might be wrong about that.

    The CODECS are the important parts, and they don't seem to differ much. I choose the codec where you seem to choose the file output type. Your codec setting window is in a totally different place and is more clear about what it's doing.

    My point is that using the H.264 codec has NEVER worked in any real way for me. I just get stuttering, etc. I tried a LOT of bitrates and it didn't seem to help.

    I use the MPEG-4 CODEC (not labelled ffmpeg on mine, but that's what the docs say it uses) and output to MP4. That yields the best results for me.

    In your last trial (900 bitrate, h.264, etc.) forget dropped frames for a moment. How did it actually LOOK? When I play my video files, I usually get under 1% dropped frames, but it plays smoothly.

    If you have an email address, I can try and send you my raw file and my MP4 file (it's a 9 minute video and is a good test source). See what you think and what you do with it. Warning, in the past, I tried to send this file to someone else here and it didn't work. This way, we can work on the same stuff.

    I'll try and update my HB soon. It seems to make sense. I was just worried that maybe the old version DID decrypt DVD's as Guest said; but it doesn't. If in the slim chance that worked, I didn't want to lose that ability, since I'd read that the 'new' version wouldn't do this anymore.

    Edit: BTW, what I meant by MPEG4 was to use the term as HB used it. In my codec dropdown box, it lists codecs as H.264, XviD, and MPEG-4 (no parentheses for any of these terms, unlike your version).

  9. #39
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    Default Re: HandBrake and Palm thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Varjak View Post
    I choose the output file/container format elsewhere. The new version seems more flexible. If I remember correctly, in my version I have to save to M4V and then rename it MP4 to play on TCPMP. I might be wrong about that.

    The CODECS are the important parts, and they don't seem to differ much. I choose the codec where you seem to choose the file output type. Your codec setting window is in a totally different place and is more clear about what it's doing.
    Ah, looks like the developers are really improving HB, from what you say it looks like they've made a major change going from 0.9.2 to 0.9.3.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varjak View Post
    My point is that using the H.264 codec has NEVER worked in any real way for me. I just get stuttering, etc. I tried a LOT of bitrates and it didn't seem to help.

    In your last trial (900 bitrate, h.264, etc.) forget dropped frames for a moment. How did it actually LOOK? When I play my video files, I usually get under 1% dropped frames, but it plays smoothly.
    Yes, the higher bitrate videos I encoded play quite smoothly. I mentioned the dropped frames to show that this is the practical limit for my overclocked TX. But overall it was an enjoyable playback experience. You can hardly notice any stuttering, lag, etc at the higher bitrates/framerates combinations: 600 kbps/29 fps and 900 kbps/24 fps. Remember that these combinations work well on myTX at 520 MHz. If I lower the clock to 416 MHz, I can at most use 600 kbps/24 fps. Perhaps you could try this combination on your LD, it will look better than an equivalent XviD or FFMPEG video.

    I'm thinking the developers of HB did more than just redesign the interface. Maybe they did something to the engine itself to make it produce better encodings? I must say I was surprised to see my very first encoding test run so smoothly on my TX, especially after reading so many comments about the impossibility to play H.264 on TCPMP in a PalmOS device.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varjak View Post
    If you have an email address, I can try and send you my raw file and my MP4 file (it's a 9 minute video and is a good test source). See what you think and what you do with it. Warning, in the past, I tried to send this file to someone else here and it didn't work. This way, we can work on the same stuff.
    How big are these files? I have a slow, very limited connection. At 9 minutes they must be at least 50MB or so, too much for my connection. But send them anyway, I'll be going to the city sometime in the next few days, then I'll download them. I'm sending you a PM with my email address.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varjak View Post
    I'll try and update my HB soon. It seems to make sense. I was just worried that maybe the old version DID decrypt DVD's as Guest said; but it doesn't. If in the slim chance that worked, I didn't want to lose that ability, since I'd read that the 'new' version wouldn't do this anymore.
    Ah, but there are other options to decrypt DVDs. I use DVD Decrypter for this task. I didn't even know the older version of HB could decrypt DVDs.

    If worse comes to worst, you can keep the installers of both HB versions so you can roll back if needed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varjak View Post
    Edit: BTW, what I meant by MPEG4 was to use the term as HB used it. In my codec dropdown box, it lists codecs as H.264, XviD, and MPEG-4 (no parentheses for any of these terms, unlike your version).
    Quote Originally Posted by Varjak View Post
    I use the MPEG-4 CODEC (not labelled ffmpeg on mine, but that's what the docs say it uses) and output to MP4. That yields the best results for me.
    Ok, I think I'm starting to get it. Version 0.9.2 uses the same codecs as 0.9.3, but they have changed the names. Your MPEG-4 codec is my "MPEG-4 (FFMpeg)". The other two codecs keep using the same names.

    Varjak, you get better results with FFMPEG than with XviD? Is the difference very marked? Since both codecs are based on MPEG-4 part 2, I'd expect little in the way of improvement going from one to the other.

    Well, I'm glad we're sorting things out. I think you should test the newer HB version ASAP, hopefully you'll get better results with it.
    Last edited by raspabalsa; 07-30-2009 at 07:36 PM.
    raspabalsa
    Palm Vx -> Palm m515 -> Palm Tungsten T1 -> Palm Tungsten T2 -> Palm Tungsten T3 -> Palm TX -> Samsung Galaxy Player 5.0 + Apple BT Keyboard -> Sony Xperia Z1 phone + Logitech BT Keyboard

    There are just four simple machines to alter force: the lever, the pulley, the inclined plane and, um, the internal combustion engine - Calvin
    Anything with a large enough engine will fly

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    Default Re: HandBrake and Palm thread

    Here's a copy of the screen. I don't think that the two versions really are that different. If they were, the version numbers would be more significantly different.

    I can't include the image. BH says it's too big! Can you tell me the best way to import the image? I did a screenshot of my HB and saved it to Paint. Paint doesn't give an option for shrinking it to a thumbnail like yours.

 

 

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